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Post by redbird87 on Feb 24, 2024 13:20:33 GMT -6
There is nothing wrong with the draft… ultimately it is where all great players come from. The problem comes from over drafting due to need and expectations that every 1st, 2nd and 3rd Rounder is a sure thing that is going to fix every problem and be so much better than someone we already have. Most draft picks wind up being mostly average to below average players. As it pertains to QB specifically….if we were sitting at 3 and you wanted to take a swing at a QB… OK. I’d still rather take BPA but I’m fine with taking a shot at a franchise QB when the cost is 1 pick (albeit a high one). But to give up multiple 1st Rd pics and likely a 2nd to move up to take a swing at a guy that’s not only a 90% fail rate but not even considered one of the top 2 QB’s in the class…. Is just Stupid. Even if we’d have traded Hunter last year like we should have to Jax and had the 11 and 17th… I still wouldn’t give up multiple 1st to move up to 3 to go draft a QB this year….especially when the guy you are likely to draft isn’t even a great fit for our offense. I know I’m on record as being a Kirk fan, but I think that ship has sailed and I just don’t see how bringing him back is going to work with the dead cap he’s sitting on. We should have drafted a QB last year when Levis was available. He may not turn out to be the Fr QB you seek, but at least you’d have a guy in house who had a year to learn and who you have an idea of what you have. This is looking more and more like Ponder 2.0! We are going to draft a QB come hell or high water because we have to. I just hope if we do it’s at 11or better yet we trade back and take one between 12 and 32 and get another 2nd ir 3rd in the process. I’m not advocating another 11-32 trade…. But if we are going to go QB I’d be fine with that because I don’t think any of the QB’s after Maye are 1st Rd Talents…..at least not in zkOC’s offense. Ok I get everything you are saying, but given all the data you have provided, why would you give up on KC? You would resign Danielle, above all else, and draft linemen, then roll with Kirk. Take a flyer on a QB in round 3 giving yourself great odds of picking a franchise Quarterback. Almost as good of odds as if you did something stupid like trading players and picks to get one of the “can’t miss” QBs. 🤣 DR, you know I love some Kirk Cousins and think he was playing his best ball of his career when he got hurt. However, because Kwesi has mismanaged the team so badly since taking over, we are in a predicament that doesn’t have a great solution. The problem with Kirk is that Kwesi left 28 million in dead cap to deal with on top of any salary that we pay Kirk at age 36 leaving very few options that are appealing particularly giving he’s coming off of an injury. How as a general manager you leave 28 million in DC to try to work with on an expiring contract on a 36-year-old at the most important position and not have a succession plan in place is beyond me. So now the question is which poison do you want to pick. Kirk is going to want a three-year contract, most likely fully guaranteed, and that for me is a problem. When you tack on the dead and let’s say it’s an average of 39 million a year you’re talking dead cap over the next three years of 145 million. That’s a lot of cap space for any player but especially on coming off injury at 36. How will he play coming off of this injury , we don’t know if the injury will linger or recur like Akers’ did, and we also don’t know how his physical skills may hold up just simply due to aging while having a contract that is eating up 20% of your cap space with no out. I am on record as saying I’m not in favor of starting a rookie, I think that has proven out time and time again to be a losing proposition, particularly with an O-Line that is extremely deficient in talent. This is why I’m more in favor of trying to sign someone like Mayfield who is 28 appears to be making a similar progression that Kirk did a few years back when things finally clicked and he started believing he could win. Mayfield isn’t as good as Kirk right now but the cost is manageable, it likely won’t be a fully guaranteed contract and at 28 he’s likely tradable if we do draft a quarterback that does pan out. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Baker Mayfield is a top 10 quarterback right now, but he has the skill set to be a top 10 quarterback with the right coaching and support. Bakers problem to date has mostly bad organizations and lost confidence and that appears to be changing. Even if you got Kirk to take a 2 year deal, it would require void years on the end to make the dead cap feasible and that negates the benefit of getting a QB on a roookie contract. My biggest concern is that we’re going to trade up to 3, give up multiple first round pics and draft a quarterback, bringing in a crap quarterback as a bridge and now you are in purgatory if it doesn’t pan out. Meaning if the rookie doesn’t develop as hoped which is highly probable now we’re back to where we have no quarterback for who knows how long…. just like the Browns just like the Bears, just like AZ, just like the Jets and all the other teams that draft a new quarterback every 2 to 3 years because their first, second or third pick in the draft didn’t pan out. Again, how Kwesi didn’t spend a first or second pick on a quarterback either of the last 2 years knowing you had 28 million of dead to work with on a quarterback that’s 36 is simply incompetence.
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budgrant1
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Competitive rebuild my ass...sell the team WILF
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Post by budgrant1 on Feb 24, 2024 13:38:12 GMT -6
Ok I get everything you are saying, but given all the data you have provided, why would you give up on KC? You would resign Danielle, above all else, and draft linemen, then roll with Kirk. Take a flyer on a QB in round 3 giving yourself great odds of picking a franchise Quarterback. Almost as good of odds as if you did something stupid like trading players and picks to get one of the “can’t miss” QBs. 🤣 DR, you know I love some Kirk Cousins and think he was playing his best ball of his career when he got hurt. However, because Kwesi has mismanaged the team so badly since taking over, we are in a predicament that doesn’t have a perfect solution. The problem with Kirk is that Kwesi left 28 million in Decap attack on top of any salary that we pay Kirk at age 36 leaving very few options that are appealing particularly giving he’s coming off of an injury. How is a general manager you leave 28 million in cab to try to work with on an expiring contract on a 36-year-old at the most important position and not have a succession plan in place is beyond me. So now the question is which poison do you want to pick Kirk is going to want a three-year contract, most likely fully guaranteed , and that for me is a problem. When you tack on the dead and let’s say it’s an average of 39 million a year you’re talking dead cap over the next three years of 145 million Kirk who we don’t know how he’ll play coming off of this injury , we don’t know if the injury will linger or recur, like Akers did, and we also don’t know how his physical skills may hold up just simply due to aging while having a contract that is eating up 20% of your cap space with no out. I am on record as saying I’m not in favor of starting a rookie, I think that has proven out time and time again to be a losing proposition, particularly with an online that is extremely deficient in talent. This is why I’m more in favor of trying to sign someone like Mayfield who is 28 appears to be making a similar progression that Kirk did a few years back when he started believing itself again with Mayfield. The cost is manageable , and he’s likely tradable if we do draft a quarterback, which we should, and feel that quarterback is better suited to lead the team. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Baker Mayfield is a top 10 quarterback right now, but he has the skill set to be a top 10 quarterback with the right coaching and support.. Even if you got Kurt to take a two-year deal, it would have to be at a significant discount to not triple the team from a cap perspective unless you add more void years and doing that negates the benefit of drafting a young quarterback hope can be playing at a high level 2 to 3 years from now on a cheap contract. Because when you throw any Boyd years, Kirk might have added to his contract to make it palatable today it’s going to make any rookie contract for a new quarterback not really that beneficial. My biggest concern is that we’re going to trade up to three give up multiple first round pics and draft a quarterback, bringing in a crap quarterback meaning if the rookie doesn’t develop as hoped which is highly probable now we’re back to where we have no good quarterbacks and we are searching for years for that person just like the Browns just like the Bears, Carolina, just like the Jets and all the other teams that draft a new quarterback every 2 to 3 years because their first second or third pick in the draft didn’t pan out. How Kwesi didn’t spend a first or second round pick on a quarterback the last two years knowing you had 28 million of dead to work with on a quarterback that’s 36 is simply incompetence. Welcome to PURPLE PURGETORY
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 24, 2024 14:26:13 GMT -6
Wahhh wahhh wahh Blah blah blah Trade up for a wing and a prayer. When does free agency start? God I hate this draft crap There is nothing wrong with the draft… ultimately it is where all great players come from. The problem comes from over drafting due to need and expectations that every 1st, 2nd and 3rd Rounder is a sure thing that is going to fix every problem and be so much better than someone we already have. Most draft picks wind up being mostly average to below average players. As it pertains to QB specifically….if we were sitting at 3 and you wanted to take a swing at a QB… OK. I’d still rather take BPA but I’m fine with taking a shot at a franchise QB when the cost is 1 pick (albeit a high one). But to give up multiple 1st Rd pics and likely a 2nd to move up to take a swing at a guy that’s not only a 90% fail rate but not even considered one of the top 2 QB’s in the class…. Is just Stupid. Even if we’d have traded Hunter last year like we should have to Jax and had the 11 and 17th… I still wouldn’t give up multiple 1st to move up to 3 to go draft a QB this year….especially when the guy you are likely to draft isn’t even a great fit for our offense. I know I’m on record as being a Kirk fan, but I think that ship has sailed and I just don’t see how bringing him back is going to work with the dead cap he’s sitting on. We should have drafted a QB last year when Levis was available. He may not turn out to be the Fr QB you seek, but at least you’d have a guy in house who had a year to learn and who you have an idea of what you have. This is looking more and more like Ponder 2.0! We are going to draft a QB come hell or high water because we have to. I just hope if we do it’s at 11or better yet we trade back and take one between 12 and 32 and get another 2nd ir 3rd in the process. I’m not advocating another 11-32 trade…. But if we are going to go QB I’d be fine with that because I don’t think any of the QB’s after Maye are 1st Rd Talents…..at least not in zkOC’s offense. 1st round QB's are not a 90% fail rate. Their success rate is actually close to CB and WR in the 1st round. If you want success rate then you would only draft OL and IDL in the 1st because their floors are higher then other positions. Marginalized positions like ILB, S, and RB actually have pretty solid success rates as 1st rounders. What JJ was the 5th WR picked in his draft and he and Lamb are the only star WR's left from that group? You are doing worse then flipping a coin on a 1st round CB. Then you have to define success.
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 24, 2024 14:31:16 GMT -6
People are dreaming they are looking at JJM going that high, he is not a top 10 or even a top 20 QB, would much rather have Nix. Wait and see, it's gonna shock you. I have been telling people for months JJ will likely go top 3 as far as QB's and after the combine you will hear how he blew everyone away on the chalk board and in the interviews. I am just not sure yet whether it is Maye or Daniels he jumps? Maye seems to be the biggest risk, but he also probably has the highest ceiling at the top of this draft group.
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Post by redbird87 on Feb 24, 2024 17:13:14 GMT -6
There is nothing wrong with the draft… ultimately it is where all great players come from. The problem comes from over drafting due to need and expectations that every 1st, 2nd and 3rd Rounder is a sure thing that is going to fix every problem and be so much better than someone we already have. Most draft picks wind up being mostly average to below average players. As it pertains to QB specifically….if we were sitting at 3 and you wanted to take a swing at a QB… OK. I’d still rather take BPA but I’m fine with taking a shot at a franchise QB when the cost is 1 pick (albeit a high one). But to give up multiple 1st Rd pics and likely a 2nd to move up to take a swing at a guy that’s not only a 90% fail rate but not even considered one of the top 2 QB’s in the class…. Is just Stupid. Even if we’d have traded Hunter last year like we should have to Jax and had the 11 and 17th… I still wouldn’t give up multiple 1st to move up to 3 to go draft a QB this year….especially when the guy you are likely to draft isn’t even a great fit for our offense. I know I’m on record as being a Kirk fan, but I think that ship has sailed and I just don’t see how bringing him back is going to work with the dead cap he’s sitting on. We should have drafted a QB last year when Levis was available. He may not turn out to be the Fr QB you seek, but at least you’d have a guy in house who had a year to learn and who you have an idea of what you have. This is looking more and more like Ponder 2.0! We are going to draft a QB come hell or high water because we have to. I just hope if we do it’s at 11or better yet we trade back and take one between 12 and 32 and get another 2nd ir 3rd in the process. I’m not advocating another 11-32 trade…. But if we are going to go QB I’d be fine with that because I don’t think any of the QB’s after Maye are 1st Rd Talents…..at least not in zkOC’s offense. 1st round QB's are not a 90% fail rate. Their success rate is actually close to CB and WR in the 1st round. If you want success rate then you would only draft OL and IDL in the 1st because their floors are higher then other positions. Marginalized positions like ILB, S, and RB actually have pretty solid success rates as 1st rounders. What JJ was the 5th WR picked in his draft and he and Lamb are the only star WR's left from that group? You are doing worse then flipping a coin on a 1st round CB. Then you have to define success. Guess it depends on what you think a success rate is. If you mean they play in the NFL for a period of time… then yes success rate is higher. Finding someone you deem a franchise QB is about a 10% success rate. Daniel Jones been in the league a long time, even got a 2nd contract…. I wouldn’t consider that a successful pic. If your team is looking to replace you as their QB… then you aren’t the guy and that pick was a miss in my book. And that’s about a 10% success rate. I’ve done the math on 1st rd QB’s going back 30 years and that’s maybe even a bit generous.
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Post by tavike on Feb 24, 2024 17:17:25 GMT -6
Wait and see, it's gonna shock you. I have been telling people for months JJ will likely go top 3 as far as QB's and after the combine you will hear how he blew everyone away on the chalk board and in the interviews. I am just not sure yet whether it is Maye or Daniels he jumps? Maye seems to be the biggest risk, but he also probably has the highest ceiling at the top of this draft group. You did say that, and I fought you on it at first. But it's happening.
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Post by tavike on Feb 24, 2024 17:19:00 GMT -6
1st round QB's are not a 90% fail rate. Their success rate is actually close to CB and WR in the 1st round. If you want success rate then you would only draft OL and IDL in the 1st because their floors are higher then other positions. Marginalized positions like ILB, S, and RB actually have pretty solid success rates as 1st rounders. What JJ was the 5th WR picked in his draft and he and Lamb are the only star WR's left from that group? You are doing worse then flipping a coin on a 1st round CB. Then you have to define success. Guess it depends on what you think a success rate is. If you mean they play in the NFL for a period of time… then yes success rate is higher. Finding someone you deem a franchise QB is about a 10% success rate. Daniel Jones been in the league a long time, even got a 2nd contract…. I wouldn’t consider that a successful pic. If your team is looking to replace you as their QB… then you aren’t the guy and that pick was a miss in my book. And that’s about a 10% success rate. I’ve done the math on 1st rd QB’s going back 30 years and that’s maybe even a bit generous. What's the rate for a team that never takes a QB in the first round? Maybe .5%?
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Post by drhoades on Feb 24, 2024 21:24:50 GMT -6
Guess it depends on what you think a success rate is. If you mean they play in the NFL for a period of time… then yes success rate is higher. Finding someone you deem a franchise QB is about a 10% success rate. Daniel Jones been in the league a long time, even got a 2nd contract…. I wouldn’t consider that a successful pic. If your team is looking to replace you as their QB… then you aren’t the guy and that pick was a miss in my book. And that’s about a 10% success rate. I’ve done the math on 1st rd QB’s going back 30 years and that’s maybe even a bit generous. What's the rate for a team that never takes a QB in the first round? Maybe .5%? No way, I am sure the success rate is way higher than those who trade up to take a QB. I would wager my house on that
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Post by smoot4208 on Feb 24, 2024 22:52:21 GMT -6
Depending on how the QBs go in the first 7 picks, Id rather try and trade down personally and try and get one of guys in the middle of the 1st. That said, I’d rather trade up and get our guy over signing someone like Mayfield who has about 5 games of quality highlight reel. That would be about the worst option to pursue in terms of QB strategy
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Post by redbird87 on Feb 25, 2024 9:10:00 GMT -6
Depending on how the QBs go in the first 7 picks, Id rather try and trade down personally and try and get one of guys in the middle of the 1st. That said, I’d rather trade up and get our guy over signing someone like Mayfield who has about 5 games of quality highlight reel. That would be about the worst option to pursue in terms of QB strategy So who are you trading up for? Williams is the only guy that’s really worth the risk in my book. Maye has the right game for our system, but a lot of questions about the system he played in and how well that success will translate at the next level. And unless Chicago keeps 1 and drafts Harrison I don’t see either as attainable. After those two…there is not a single QB worth moving up for based on what is currently known. Daniel’s is a horrible fit, McCarthy would be a 2nd Rd pic if there weren’t a ton of teams in need of QB. Are you going to bet the farm on a 2nd Rd talent?
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budgrant1
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Competitive rebuild my ass...sell the team WILF
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Post by budgrant1 on Feb 25, 2024 9:52:29 GMT -6
That's the good stuff. There's been buzz in recent weeks about the Vikings being a team to watch for a possible trade up for a quarterback, but this is a report that directly addresses the idea of the Vikings trading up to a specific spot (No. 3 overall) for a specific player (Jayden Daniels).
Assuming Kirk Cousins signs elsewhere, this might be a worthwhile home run swing by the Vikings. They need to a take a chance on upside, and Daniels has tons of it. The reigning Heisman winner is the most dynamic dual-threat prospect in this year's quarterback class. He threw for 3,812 yards and 40 touchdown passes with just four interceptions this past season, adding another 1,134 yards and ten touchdowns as a runner. It was a truly ridiculous statistical season for the fifth-year senior who transferred from Arizona State a couple years ago.
Daniels is an incredible runner with agility and breakaway speed, but he's also far more than that. He can manage the pocket, go through progressions, and make good decisions with the football. His other superpower is his deep ball, which was the best in the nation in 2023.
Imagine what the Vikings' offense could look like if Daniels pans out. An elite dual-threat QB being coached by Kevin O'Connell, throwing deep balls to Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison? That could be scary for the rest of the NFC.
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Post by burntpackerdbs84 on Feb 25, 2024 11:28:52 GMT -6
That's the good stuff. There's been buzz in recent weeks about the Vikings being a team to watch for a possible trade up for a quarterback, but this is a report that directly addresses the idea of the Vikings trading up to a specific spot (No. 3 overall) for a specific player (Jayden Daniels). Assuming Kirk Cousins signs elsewhere, this might be a worthwhile home run swing by the Vikings. They need to a take a chance on upside, and Daniels has tons of it. The reigning Heisman winner is the most dynamic dual-threat prospect in this year's quarterback class. He threw for 3,812 yards and 40 touchdown passes with just four interceptions this past season, adding another 1,134 yards and ten touchdowns as a runner. It was a truly ridiculous statistical season for the fifth-year senior who transferred from Arizona State a couple years ago. Daniels is an incredible runner with agility and breakaway speed, but he's also far more than that. He can manage the pocket, go through progressions, and make good decisions with the football. His other superpower is his deep ball, which was the best in the nation in 2023. Imagine what the Vikings' offense could look like if Daniels pans out. An elite dual-threat QB being coached by Kevin O'Connell, throwing deep balls to Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison? That could be scary for the rest of the NFC. Yup I agree, if it is a QB, go all in on Daniels.
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taz24
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Post by taz24 on Feb 25, 2024 12:40:11 GMT -6
I would be fine with Daniels.
Always a risk and with him it might be if his body will hold up to the NFL.
But I like him better than Bryce Young and Anthony Richardson from last years draft.
And full disclosure I DID NOT have any idea Stroud would be this good this quick.
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Post by smoot4208 on Feb 25, 2024 13:02:23 GMT -6
Depending on how the QBs go in the first 7 picks, Id rather try and trade down personally and try and get one of guys in the middle of the 1st. That said, I’d rather trade up and get our guy over signing someone like Mayfield who has about 5 games of quality highlight reel. That would be about the worst option to pursue in terms of QB strategy So who are you trading up for? Williams is the only guy that’s really worth the risk in my book. Maye has the right game for our system, but a lot of questions about the system he played in and how well that success will translate at the next level. And unless Chicago keeps 1 and drafts Harrison I don’t see either as attainable. After those two…there is not a single QB worth moving up for based on what is currently known. Daniel’s is a horrible fit, McCarthy would be a 2nd Rd pic if there weren’t a ton of teams in need of QB. Are you going to bet the farm on a 2nd Rd talent? Either Maye or Williams would be fine to bet the farm on imo. I agree I don’t want Daniels
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Post by purplevein on Feb 25, 2024 13:08:58 GMT -6
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