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Post by redbird87 on Apr 26, 2024 11:24:58 GMT -6
Iβm on vaca, went to dinner after the McCarthy pick. So didnβt have a ton of info on player or how we got there. A good night sleep and a chance to do a little reading this a.m. and have some more organized thoughts.
1). McCarthy. I thought Kwesi did a phenomenal job not getting fleeced at 3 and 5 while calling the Giants bluff. I think he panicked a bit trading up to 10 because the Falcons took Penix whoβd been linked to the Raiders. Nix had been discussed by a ton of analyst as being the QB best suited to Denver so I donβt think we traded up to keep them at bay. I think the concern was LV would try to get him. Weβll never know, and while the price was richer than it should have beenβ¦ Iβve got no problem with this move and give him a A+. Got our #2 QB and gave up no 1βs. A
2). Turner. This was a surprising move. Arguably we got a top 5 Defensive player iβ¦. Maybe THE best in the draft but he wasnβt the clear favorite. But there had only been 1 D player off the board at 17 meaning we were virtually guaranteed a top 2 DE, DT or CB at 23. So the cost to move up was maybe unnecessary. Still my criticism of Kwesi is not landing difference makersβ¦ so I appreciate the bold move but question maybe the need to do so in this situation. If he becomes a top 5 Edge the cost becomes a moot point but if he turns into Chase Young it could haunt him. I give this move a B+ not because of the player, but the cost to secure him with so much other high def talent on the board.
3). This draft has been a massive change of strategy for Kwesi and the move to land Turner at the expense in draft capital leads me to believe Kwesi was definitely on the hot seat and really needed to land some difference makers to keep his job. Again I love Turner the player but when you factor what we gave up to get 23 and then what we threw on top to move to 17 to take himβ¦ it was damn near an entire draft over 2 years. I like how he played JJ much better than Turner but overall this has already been Kwesiβs best draft on paper by a mileβ¦ take that however you want.
4). Nobody has really raised this, but given we hired all new scouts it is interesting we traded away almost all our pics in the mid rounds this year and next where scouts really earn their keep. So I just find that interesting.
5). The fact we gave up so much of 25s draft, makes me wonder if A) Kwesi thinks or knows heβs getting a 1,2 or 3 pick from Atl in 25 even if it hasnβt been announced.
6). Given we have so many holes weβve failed to address for 3 yearsβ¦ I wonder if we are really done making moves.
Overall I really like the two players we walked away with, I like the patience he showed with 11 pick just think we maybe made a move at a big cost at 23-17 we maybe didnβt need to make. But the 2 players are exciting none the less
PSβ¦ almost forgotβ¦. The NFC North is going to be a bitch!!
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shawn3458
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Post by shawn3458 on Apr 26, 2024 11:32:45 GMT -6
I give KAM credit for being flexible and not sticking to a rigid personal approach.
22 draft was a trade back plan - Epic failure. 23 draft was stand pat and pick bpa- worked well 24 draft - Move up to secure βyour guysβ results tbd.
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taz24
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Post by taz24 on Apr 26, 2024 11:39:25 GMT -6
Good read and lots of valid points.
I disagree completely about the hotseat. A silly notion IMO but we have beat it to death so going to move on.
I really appreciate the offseason Kwesi has put together. I think losing Cousins and Hunter freed up some money and opened up his playbook. They took a shot winning with what they had and the injury to Kirk took the train off the track. Now they are gearing up.
I also think the Flores hire helped. You don't aways get it right and KAM/KOC made a mistake with Donatel but a great hire in Flores.
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Post by nemplsvikingsfan on Apr 26, 2024 12:10:37 GMT -6
Good collection of thoughts. I love the aggressiveness of Kwesi in the 1st round and the quality over quantity approach, which I prefer. Spielman was always about quantity in the Draft and maximizing his number of dart throws.
I'm not going to fret about trading away mid and late round draft picks when they have a 25% or less hit rate.
However, I don't believe Kwesi is on the hot seat after only two years. He was very inexperienced when the Wilfs hired him, but I believe Kwesi is starting find his groove as a GM.
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ponifan
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Post by ponifan on Apr 26, 2024 12:43:49 GMT -6
Your point #4 is very valid and it supports my belief that Kwesi was just trying to deflect blame by housecleaning the scouting department. He negated the impact of the new scouts, not just this year, but next year too.
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mg415
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Post by mg415 on Apr 26, 2024 12:54:34 GMT -6
After years of QB "issues" and retreads current leadership took a shot, I am really old and have seen it all. ... Gary Cuozzo, Manning, McMahon, Moon, George, MCnabb, ferrotte, Bradford .... here is the complete list if you have an hour to read. americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_Vikings_starting_quarterbacks Vikings list of QB'sThe odds say this pick will not be the one, but as Wayne Gretzky said famously. βYou Miss 100% of the Shots You Donβt Takeβ Lets all have a big glass of purple kool-aid and see what happens.... it just might work.
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Post by redbird87 on Apr 26, 2024 12:55:11 GMT -6
I am still really struggling with what we gave up to get Turner with so much good defensive talent on the board. Not that I donβt like Turnerβ¦ but just seams like a massive overpay we didnβt need to make. The only thing that makes me happy is weβve drafted so poorly in years 1&2β¦ but would have liked to see what our new scouting department could do with so much talent getting pushed down the board.
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purpleberserker
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Post by purpleberserker on Apr 26, 2024 13:02:14 GMT -6
I will just add this. KAM often gets talked about as if he has total autonomy in making personnel and draft decisions. Maybe that is how it should be for an NFL GM, but how do we know that it is true with the Vikings. There are obviously teams where the owners are intimately involved in team operations and personnel. After the Spielman / Zimmer debacle, do we know that the Wilf's did not insert themselves into the process more with this new regime? For instance, I have a hard time believing that KAM made the decision to extend Cousins 2 years ago with agreement from the Wilfs.
Perhaps the last couple of years haven't been some great learning experience and draft day epiphany for KAM so much as it has taken a couple of years for KAM to convince the Wilfs to trust the process and analysis of the new staff and to allow him to make the personnel decisions as he sees fit. Perhaps many of the past moves that he gets so criticized for were actually done at the direction or suggestion of the owners rather than his own judgement. It's not hard to imagine a young, first-time GM acquiescing to the whims of the team owners more easily than a seasoned veteran GM.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying that this scenario is exactly how things have come to pass. The point is that we really don't know the dynamics and interworking of the team administrative staff. And without that basic knowledge, it is difficult to evaluate KAM's performance to date (and any supposed hot seat) by simply looking at the public results.
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tavike
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Post by tavike on Apr 26, 2024 13:02:22 GMT -6
I am still really struggling with what we gave up to get Turner with so much good defensive talent on the board. Not that I donβt like Turnerβ¦ but just seams like a massive overpay we didnβt need to make. The only thing that makes me happy is weβve drafted so poorly in years 1&2β¦ but would have liked to see what our new scouting department could do with so much talent getting pushed down the board. I think the only three blue chip defensive players on the board at that time were turner, Q. Mitchell, and Terrion Arnold. They would have probably gotten Arnold if they stood pat. I know it was not a need, but I was hoping they would have taken Brian Thomas Jr.
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purpleberserker
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Post by purpleberserker on Apr 26, 2024 13:08:09 GMT -6
Your point #4 is very valid and it supports my belief that Kwesi was just trying to deflect blame by housecleaning the scouting department. He negated the impact of the new scouts, not just this year, but next year too. Is there any position where the scouting and their underlying analysis is more important than selecting a "franchise" QB? We know that KOC was intimately involved in the QB evaluation but I'm sure the scouting department was as well. I would also suggest that finding Day 3 contributors is more challenging than finding them on Day 2. This whole "deflecting blame" theory just seems like another way to detract from the job that KAM has done so far this draft.
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Post by iceratz16 on Apr 26, 2024 13:10:38 GMT -6
After years of QB "issues" and retreads current leadership took a shot, I am really old and have seen it all. ... Gary Cuozzo, Manning, McMahon, Moon, George, MCnabb, ferrotte, Bradford .... here is the complete list if you have an hour to read. americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_Vikings_starting_quarterbacks Vikings list of QB'sThe odds say this pick will not be the one, but as Wayne Gretzky said famously. βYou Miss 100% of the Shots You Donβt Takeβ Lets all have a big glass of purple kool-aid and see what happens.... it just might work. And yet, Gretzky has ties to JJ McCarthy.
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Post by frantheman10 on Apr 26, 2024 13:11:23 GMT -6
I canβt complain about the Turner trade up because I always bitched about trade downs with Rick and then KaM in 2022. But we could have stayed at 23 and gotten Arnold at corner and kept the picks. I think Turner will be really good but so will Arnold. I started a couple of posts about it and then said to myself, donβt be that guy thatβs never happy. Iβm happy with Turner but I think getting Arnold at another position of need and keeping the capital was the better move.
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mjollnir
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Post by mjollnir on Apr 26, 2024 13:16:58 GMT -6
Cripes again with the hot seat. Last year we were a Kirk Cousins away from the playoffs. The year before 13-3 with a putrid Defensive plan that cost us in the playoffs.
Last night showed that with the salary cap excess we will have next year and beyond they can go after the low high level free agents to address the shortcomings of not having mid round picks. This is really sound football as you know what you are buying...something a draftee is not.
Several on here were good with giving up 3 first to get a QB, we got the consensus second best fit and did not give up anywhere near that much. As to the trade to move up to 10 had they stood pat and Denver or New York leapfrogged us this place would have crucified KAM. As to the move at 17 I am ok with it 5 spots to get a consensus 1st rounder and arguable top 10, that many consider as the first Defensive guy to go off the board and many mocks had him going at 8 to Atlanta. Getting him at 17 for a 3rd, 4th and 5th is not that bad considering we will have Greenard on the other side, our edge rush is going to be solid now hopefully they can find that middle clogging DT with what is left of the draft.
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Post by redbird87 on Apr 26, 2024 13:19:22 GMT -6
I didnβt say he was deflecting blame. I didnβt say or infer he was deflecting Blame. Just find it unusual youβd get rid of so many day 2 mid round picks if you think youβve stepped up the scouting department with βyourβ guys.
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Post by dukeofdubuque on Apr 26, 2024 13:21:50 GMT -6
Kwesi has consistently shown that he has a propensity for getting fleeced in trades, which unfortunately tends to become a vicious cycle as other GMs know he gives up more than βbook valueβ and will try to get that as well. You donβt want to be the guy who βlostβ a trade with the guy everybody else took to the cleaners.
I happen to like the trade up to get Turner because I saw him as a Top 10 pick who was pushed down by need at QB (including ours) and OT. So I viewed that as more of a trade from 23 to 10 than 23 to 17.
I think we will probably need to trade out of the first round next year to add a few picks as right now we only have the first and two fifths. Unfortunately, based on his history and now his reputation, Kwesi probably wonβt get as much as he should.
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