Vikeroo
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Posts: 10,216
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Post by Vikeroo on May 5, 2024 13:14:18 GMT -6
So you defined it as a transient starter and then mention Phillips is a transient starter... interesting... Average starter, lunchpail guy, journeyman, and other terms are all synonymous. Nah, I never said Phillips was a "transient starter"; but, I do find it interesting that you chose to add denigrating label to him. You defined Phillips as a journeymen while I view a journeymen as a transient player that needs to jump from team to team because they can't establish a job. Phillips was a good enough player to earn his entire rookie contract for a team that couldn't afford to retain him on a veteran contract. Once Phillips got his first chance to sign with a team of his own choosing he signed with MN as a run stuffing DT and has excelled at that role. The Vikings could choose to cut him and save 6.5 million. He wasn't a starter in Buffalo until halfway through his 4th year when the starter ahead of him got hurt. Vikings took a gamble on a guy with something like 9 career starts and 2 seasons marred by injuries and paid him a low-mid contract and have gotten ok return on it so far. Was not especially good in 2022, but was pretty good last year. Almost everyone on here wants to replace him or replace him at NT and move him to the big 5T/DT spot. We want him in the Bullard role as an early down guy at that spot.
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Post by 1angryviking on May 5, 2024 15:25:21 GMT -6
Nah, I never said Phillips was a "transient starter"; but, I do find it interesting that you chose to add denigrating label to him. You defined Phillips as a journeymen while I view a journeymen as a transient player that needs to jump from team to team because they can't establish a job. Phillips was a good enough player to earn his entire rookie contract for a team that couldn't afford to retain him on a veteran contract. Once Phillips got his first chance to sign with a team of his own choosing he signed with MN as a run stuffing DT and has excelled at that role. The Vikings could choose to cut him and save 6.5 million. He wasn't a starter in Buffalo until halfway through his 4th year when the starter ahead of him got hurt. Vikings took a gamble on a guy with something like 9 career starts and 2 seasons marred by injuries and paid him a low-mid contract and have gotten ok return on it so far. Was not especially good in 2022, but was pretty good last year. Almost everyone on here wants to replace him or replace him at NT and move him to the big 5T/DT spot. We want him in the Bullard role as an early down guy at that spot. I didn't know you were elected to speak for almost everyone on the board. Regardless, moving him to a different spot along the DL is not the same as replacing him. Apparently Phillips put up enough tape in his limited opportunities in Buffalo to earn a modest contract as a run stopper and over the past 2 seasons where he has easily been the best DT on the team.
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mjollnir
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Post by mjollnir on May 6, 2024 7:36:30 GMT -6
Nah, I never said Phillips was a "transient starter"; but, I do find it interesting that you chose to add denigrating label to him. You defined Phillips as a journeymen while I view a journeymen as a transient player that needs to jump from team to team because they can't establish a job. Phillips was a good enough player to earn his entire rookie contract for a team that couldn't afford to retain him on a veteran contract. Once Phillips got his first chance to sign with a team of his own choosing he signed with MN as a run stuffing DT and has excelled at that role. The Vikings could choose to cut him and save 6.5 million. He wasn't a starter in Buffalo until halfway through his 4th year when the starter ahead of him got hurt. Vikings took a gamble on a guy with something like 9 career starts and 2 seasons marred by injuries and paid him a low-mid contract and have gotten ok return on it so far. Was not especially good in 2022, but was pretty good last year. Almost everyone on here wants to replace him or replace him at NT and move him to the big 5T/DT spot. We want him in the Bullard role as an early down guy at that spot. You keep pointing out that he did not start (11 officially for the Bills) but other then 19 when he was hurt the guy played in 12 plus games every year, his rookie year he had the 2nd best DT stats on the team and the guy above him was all pro. Oh that injury in 2019 was a ACL. Phillips has been extremely cash effective
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Post by dougpaschal on May 6, 2024 8:52:28 GMT -6
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Post by redbird87 on May 6, 2024 9:21:20 GMT -6
I see both sides of this Phillips issue from a value standpoint. Last year he played pretty well, but the year before frankly he was neither good or effective (had one very good game against Buffalo). I too think his stats are skewed a bit because people ran up the middle so much against us it automatically raised his numbers. So, I think you could argue in year one the value wasn't there, last year the value looks fair. This year...who knows. But for every Phillips, there are Davenports, Chandon Sullivans, Dean Lowry's....etc. BTW....since Doug likes to reference PFF when it suits him, Phillips did not show up as a top 20 NT in 2023. Guess who did....Armon Watts!
But to Vikeroo's point, Phillips is a high effort guy, but nothing else about him is special. Even if we could agree that he played at a slightly above average level last year, he's not Dexter Lawrence, Aaron Donald or Chris Jones.... a guy you build your Defense around, and that is my point. You can go to FA to get temporary fillers, but you are rarely going to find elite talents in FA that can become cornerstones of your team in the Cap Era of football unless you happen to come across a late bloomer which is rare. Your best bet at getting elite play in FA is going with an aged vet that you hope still has something in the tank and they typically want comp they can't play to at the end of their deal. The best way to find difference makers is still the draft and it isn't relegated to 1st Rd. Picks. While statistically your odds of hitting are higher in Rd. 1, there are plenty of elite talents that come out of Rounds 2-4.
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Post by dougpaschal on May 6, 2024 9:21:28 GMT -6
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taz24
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Post by taz24 on May 6, 2024 15:04:34 GMT -6
Phillips had a Terrific season in 2023 and the guy that matters, Brian Flores, does not seem to be concerned about replacing him or upgrading from him. At least it does not appear to be a priority so I think Phillips is a good fit for the Flores system.
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Post by redbird87 on May 6, 2024 16:19:55 GMT -6
Phillips had a Terrific season in 2023 and the guy that matters, Brian Flores, does not seem to be concerned about replacing him or upgrading from him. At least it does not appear to be a priority so I think Phillips is a good fit for the Flores system. I'm not sure anyone here said we were looking to replace the guy or even bashing the guy for that matter. Teams need players like Phillips whether as a starter or as rotational depth. What people have said is that he is primarily a run stuffer with little push to the passer and you likely could have gotten similar production out of a Rd 2 or 3 player at a fraction of the cost you are paying him (and IDL is a relatively safe draft pick when it comes to Run Stuffers). Nobody is arguing that he didn't play well in 23, but if you think he is an elite talent .... he just isn't. He plays with a very high effort level which is awesome and he played at an above average level in year 2, but he has neither the size or skill set to be a dominant player like a Chris Jones or Dexter Lawrence. Nobody is game planning around Harrison Phillips...in fact they are running right at him! I can't speak for others, but Harrison Phillips is a picture perfect example of what I've been trying to get across. A Harrison Phillips or a Murphy Jr., who can play at a slightly above average level but can't take over a game or shut down the opposing teams best receiver, is about as good as you can normally expect to get out of Free Agency if you are going after players in their mid 20's coming up on 2nd contracts. Most of the time, it's not even that good. Look at Riley Reiff.... he's the poster child of Free Agents. Detroit knew he wasn't that good, let him hit FA, we signed the guy to a hefty contract thinking he solved our problems and he was a constant liability. Did he start...yes, were we happy with his play....NO. Are there exceptions...of course, but it is not the norm. A team can go after an aging vet like Danielle Hunter and pay top dollar and maybe get what they paid for, but at 29/30 you can't really build your team around them anymore not to mention it's a huge risk if play falls off or injuries creep into the picture due to age. The draft is were you find real difference makers and when you find them you get them at a real value. You can find plenty of Ezra Cleveland's in the draft at a fraction of the cost....but you have to have draft picks to draft them. And maybe this is more to the point. You are never going to have an entire team of all pros. But the more Run Stuffer you have costing you 2.5M vs. 9M leaves you a lot more room to go after the few elite FA's that may actually be able to be a difference maker. And yes, Flores is playing Phillips, but what other choice does he have? Saying that a coach playing someone validates that they are good is naive. We have played a lot of players over the years that shouldn't have been playing....the shiniest turd in the room is still a turd, they just catch your eye more than the others. That comment is not directed at Phillips, but rather the basis of the argument/comment. Having a starting job doesn't make you a good player!
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Post by Prเถงudhเถงrn on May 6, 2024 17:46:34 GMT -6
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