2012mom
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Posts: 4,366
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Post by 2012mom on Jun 28, 2021 19:38:03 GMT -6
With a good showing....there will be plenty of takers.ย Just because his cap is 45 doesn't mean it costs a team 45.ย Cash spend is 35 and as a QB he is actually in his prime these days.ย He's durable and I expect he'll post a great showing this year with better line play.ย Everyone always has the the "grass is greener" mentality.ย But in reality, he has taken his teams as far as many other high profile QB's since coming here and with way worse line play around him.ย When was the last time Rodgers went to a SB?ย Wilson?ย How many championship games or SB's has Dak gotten to, Stafford orย Watson?ย Yep....same as Kirk.ย ย Kirk has one playoff win in three years here, and missed the playoffs two of three years. In the same time span, Rodgers has two division championships, and made it to the NFC two of three years. In the same three years, Wilson has led his team to a top five showing in points scored all three years, but had only one playoff win in the time span. Of course, Wilson has five other playoff wins, a SB trophy, and was inches away from a second SB trophy. I'll agree that Cousins is similar to Prescott, Stafford and Watson, but comparing Cousins to Rodgers or Wilson is just ludicrous. BTW, I'll be very happy to eat crow at the end of this season if Cousins is SB MVP.
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Post by redbird87 on Jun 29, 2021 13:43:07 GMT -6
With a good showing....there will be plenty of takers. Just because his cap is 45 doesn't mean it costs a team 45. Cash spend is 35 and as a QB he is actually in his prime these days. He's durable and I expect he'll post a great showing this year with better line play. Everyone always has the the "grass is greener" mentality. But in reality, he has taken his teams as far as many other high profile QB's since coming here and with way worse line play around him. When was the last time Rodgers went to a SB? Wilson? How many championship games or SB's has Dak gotten to, Stafford or Watson? Yep....same as Kirk. Kirk has one playoff win in three years here, and missed the playoffs two of three years. In the same time span, Rodgers has two division championships, and made it to the NFC two of three years. In the same three years, Wilson has led his team to a top five showing in points scored all three years, but had only one playoff win in the time span. Of course, Wilson has five other playoff wins, a SB trophy, and was inches away from a second SB trophy. I'll agree that Cousins is similar to Prescott, Stafford and Watson, but comparing Cousins to Rodgers or Wilson is just ludicrous. BTW, I'll be very happy to eat crow at the end of this season if Cousins is SB MVP. Wilson does have 2 SB appearances but neither had much to do with him. The offense back then ran thru Mar Lynch and the Defense was probably the 3rd best defense in 40 years. I believe in the Denver SB win they forced 4 fumbles and 2 interceptions. Don't get me wrong, I think Wilson is an excellent player, but without his dominant defense he hasn't been any more successful than Kirk and should have gotten beated by Teddy Bridgewater in a playoff game! As for Rodgers, despite being a dick, he's probably one of the most talented players to ever play the game....but let's face it, he hasn't taken GB to the promised land in a really long time! Oh, and Rodgers has had 2 offensive coordinators in his career and gets more drive saving calls than any QB in history.....Kirk has had a different OC EVERY year he's been here and this year will be no different....4 years going on offensive coordinator #4. My point is all the "Kirk can't win" people need to open their eyes a bit and realize he's had just as much success as many of the QB's they'd love to see play here. And just as an aside, our Defense hasn't been dominant ever since the Eagles destroyed them in the championship game and showed every team in the league how to beat us. In fact, our Defense has been down right average to bad most of the time Kirk has been here. Last year our D was putrid, the year before, it was better but not great and Kirk's first year it was kind of a shit show as well. So say what you want about Kirk, but our lack of success has had as much to do about other factors as his play. In last years Seattle game, Kirk outdueled Russel on his own turf. It wasn't Kirk's fault we didn't kick a field goal at the end of the game to win, nor was it his fault the coaches handed the ball to Mattison instead of Cook on 4th and 1 to seal the game AND called a run play between the C and RG the weakest area of our offensive line to boot! I was pounding the table mad when we signed Kirk. I didn't like him, I thought he choked under pressure and I thought for the first year and a half he was here he proved me right 100%. But ever since the NO win, I think he has turned the corner a bit. He's more engaged, he has more fire, he has more confidence....he played outstanding football given the pressure he was under in the last 2/3rds of last season. With any sort of pocket to sit in with an improved OL, I think he'll put up a very healthy 2021 and we see suitors lining up IF we don't resign him.
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Post by 1angryviking on Jun 29, 2021 14:37:46 GMT -6
Kirk has one playoff win in three years here, and missed the playoffs two of three years. In the same time span, Rodgers has two division championships, and made it to the NFC two of three years. In the same three years, Wilson has led his team to a top five showing in points scored all three years, but had only one playoff win in the time span. Of course, Wilson has five other playoff wins, a SB trophy, and was inches away from a second SB trophy. I'll agree that Cousins is similar to Prescott, Stafford and Watson, but comparing Cousins to Rodgers or Wilson is just ludicrous. BTW, I'll be very happy to eat crow at the end of this season if Cousins is SB MVP. In last years Seattle game, Kirk outdueled Russel on his own turf. It wasn't Kirk's fault we didn't kick a field goal at the end of the game to win, nor was it his fault the coaches handed the ball to Mattison instead of Cook on 4th and 1 to seal the game AND called a run play between the C and RG the weakest area of our offensive line to boot! And just as an aside, our Defense hasn't been dominant ever since the Eagles destroyed them in the championship game and showed every team in the league how to beat us. In fact, our Defense has been down right average to bad most of the time Kirk has been here. Cousins gave that game away on back to back turnovers that resulted in 14 points in less than a minute. Also, Wilson had more TD's and less turnovers. I do think it was a mistake for Zimmer not to kick a FG... but I have a separate set of problems with him. What I do think is telling is that when the game was on the line... Zimmer trusted his #2 and #3 RB's on 6 out of the 7 plays on that drive (because Cook didn't play most of the 2nd half) than his top earning QB who was "dueling" with a SB winning All-Pro QB? To your point about Kirk and the defense being average since he's been here... that's simply not true. - 2019 - 5th fewest points against - 2018 - 9th fewest points against
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2012mom
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Post by 2012mom on Jun 29, 2021 19:29:26 GMT -6
In last years Seattle game, Kirk outdueled Russel on his own turf.ย It wasn't Kirk's fault we didn't kick a field goal at the end of the game to win, nor was it his fault the coaches handed the ball to Mattison instead of Cook on 4th and 1 to seal the game AND called a run play between the C and RG the weakest area of our offensive line to boot!ย And just as an aside, our Defense hasn't been dominant ever since the Eagles destroyed them in the championship game and showed every team in the league how to beat us. In fact, our Defense has been down right average to bad most of the time Kirk has been here. Cousins gave that game away on back to back turnovers that resulted in 14 points in less than a minute.ย Also, Wilson had more TD's and less turnovers. I do think it was a mistake for Zimmer not to kick a FG... but I have a separate set of problems with him.ย What I do think is telling is that when the game was on the line... Zimmer trusted his #2 and #3 RB's on 6 out of the 7 plays on that drive (because Cook didn't play most of the 2nd half) than his top earning QB who was "dueling" with a SB winning All-Pro QB? To your point about Kirk and the defense being average since he's been here... that's simply not true. ย - 2019 - 5th fewest points against ย - 2018 - 9th fewest points against You beat me to it. Kirk's boneheaded turnovers snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Last year's defense was awful, but not in that game. as Seattle had done nothing offensively until Kirk's two turnovers handed them 14 points within a minute.
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Post by redbird87 on Jun 30, 2021 6:53:58 GMT -6
So Kirkโs turnovers are boneheaded, but Russ throwing an Int on the 1 yard line to lose a SB makes him ok still? Despite Cousins 2intโs he still had the team in position to win in spite of the fact their UT/NG was literally tossing Dozier and Bradbury around like a rag doll all game!
I think people here greatly dismiss how impressive Kirk has been of late given the amount of pressure he repeatedly faces up the middle. Our OL is a constant sieve!
Last, donโt throw out 2018 stats on D to me. Perhaps you forgot we fired our OC mid season because he was making our D look so bad because our drives werenโt long enough. Zimmer had to โgo back to basicsโ after the Rams game which if memory serves me was about game 4 or 5 because we couldnโt stop anyone. Stats are stats. If you want to throw defensive stats at me then I can tell you Statistically Kirk has been around a top 6/7 QB averaging 4000+ yards and less than 10 int per yearโฆ..But the haters will say thatโs just โgarbage time statsโ. Canโt have it both ways. In most of Kirkโs tenure our D couldnโt stop anyone when it counted.
I absolutely Guarantee you SF would have taken him if we were willing to deal and they could have made the Cap issue work with Garapollo.
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Post by 1angryviking on Jun 30, 2021 10:46:24 GMT -6
So Kirkโs turnovers are boneheaded, but Russ throwing an Int on the 1 yard line to lose a SB makes him ok still? Despite Cousins 2intโs he still had the team in position to win in spite of the fact their UT/NG was literally tossing Dozier and Bradbury around like a rag doll all game! I think people here greatly dismiss how impressive Kirk has been of late given the amount of pressure he repeatedly faces up the middle. Our OL is a constant sieve! Last, donโt throw out 2018 stats on D to me. Perhaps you forgot we fired our OC mid season because he was making our D look so bad because our drives werenโt long enough. Zimmer had to โgo back to basicsโ after the Rams game which if memory serves me was about game 4 or 5 because we couldnโt stop anyone. Stats are stats. If you want to throw defensive stats at me then I can tell you Statistically Kirk has been around a top 6/7 QB averaging 4000+ yards and less than 10 int per yearโฆ..But the haters will say thatโs just โgarbage time statsโ. Canโt have it both ways. In most of Kirkโs tenure our D couldnโt stop anyone when it counted. I absolutely Guarantee you SF would have taken him if we were willing to deal and they could have made the Cap issue work with Garapollo. - Bringing up a single Wilson Int from a completely unrelated game to MN vs Seattle in 2020 doesn't absolve Kirk from handing over the Seattle game. If you want to look at the whole... Wilson's TD to Int ratio is 3.29 to Kirks 2.26 - I'd hardly call allowing 200 rushing yards a dominant performance by the Seattle DL - Seattle and MN have both had terrible OL's over the past few years... that's why Wilson wanted out this offseason. But, unlike Cousins... Wilson has the ability to sense pressure, move and make a play. - Cousins has had better offensive weapons than Wilson the past 3 years in MN - Wilson has been to the playoffs 8 times in 9 years, he has won 2 NFC championships and a SB... Kirk has one a single playoff game in 3 appearances over the the same timeline. Regarding defense; you shouldn't use a single example to frame a narrative on an entire season or career. Yes, McVay out-coached Zimmer and exploited Barr several times in the Rams game that happened week 4... the next 12 games the Vikings defense was solid and was 9th best over the course of the entire season. But, to your point... the Cousins led offense was so bad that it got the OC fired and put a lot of extra pressure on the defense because the offense had short drives and couldn't keep the defense off of the field. Lastly, I wouldn't use the 49ers as the gold standard for QB decisions.
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2012mom
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Posts: 4,366
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Post by 2012mom on Jun 30, 2021 11:04:43 GMT -6
So Kirkโs turnovers are boneheaded, but Russ throwing an Int on the 1 yard line to lose a SB makes him ok still? Despite Cousins 2intโs he still had the team in position to win in spite of the fact their UT/NG was literally tossing Dozier and Bradbury around like a rag doll all game! I think people here greatly dismiss how impressive Kirk has been of late given the amount of pressure he repeatedly faces up the middle. Our OL is a constant sieve! Last, donโt throw out 2018 stats on D to me. Perhaps you forgot we fired our OC mid season because he was making our D look so bad because our drives werenโt long enough. Zimmer had to โgo back to basicsโ after the Rams game which if memory serves me was about game 4 or 5 because we couldnโt stop anyone. Stats are stats. If you want to throw defensive stats at me then I can tell you Statistically Kirk has been around a top 6/7 QB averaging 4000+ yards and less than 10 int per yearโฆ..But the haters will say thatโs just โgarbage time statsโ. Canโt have it both ways. In most of Kirkโs tenure our D couldnโt stop anyone when it counted. I absolutely Guarantee you SF would have taken him if we were willing to deal and they could have made the Cap issue work with Garapollo. Kirk had 10 INTs in the first 6 games. I don't really care that he played well after that, because he had already "led" the team to a 1-5 record, and only with a playoff shot because of the playoff expansion. Later in the season, he didn't throw many INTs, but he had a bunch of fumbles. Yeah, Wilson would like to have back that SB throw, and Pete Carroll might wish that he had called Lynch's number, but I dare you to find a string of six games where Wilson has personally played his team into a 1-5 record.
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Post by mossatron on Jun 30, 2021 11:43:39 GMT -6
I agree there are good points on both sides of this argument. In my mind, Kirk needs to improve his situational play, I think that's why he gets the choker moniker. He needs to come through when we need the big play in the big moment more often to be considered a top tier guy.
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Post by redbird87 on Jun 30, 2021 11:43:44 GMT -6
We can agree to disagree. I'm not sitting here trying to argue Kirk is the greatest QB in the league, he isn't...he certainly has flaws but he also has his strengths and I'd argue he sits just below the top tier of QB's and has been held back by multiple factors not all on him. My point is people want to condemn the guy because he hasn't taken us to a SB or another Championship game since he got here....but there is a lot more to us not getting there than QB play and many of the other people fawn over haven't really done much better. Our coaching decisions and clock management have been questionable and our approach conservative, our OL has been a sieve, he's on his 4th OC in 4 years and only 1 was fired, and last our D has not looked anything like the D from the early Zimmer years. 9th in scoring as someone mentioned is not a dominant defense.
All you had to do is watch the SB this year to see what pressure does to a QB. For all practical measures, few would argue Mahomes isn't one of the top 3 QB's in the league and he wasn't too impressive in the SB when he had little time in the pocket. Look at the time Brady had in the pocket in SB....he had all day to throw. Yes, I too think Wilson is better than Cousins, but my point is he certainly hasn't lit the world on fire of late. And as for the weapons comment Metcalf and Locket are damned good and their Running game is always solid. The one thing you can consistently count on from Seattle is physical football something I hope we are able to achieve this year.
To get to the SB it requires a solid effort in all phases (our ST have been bad every year since we let Patterson go), it usually requires at least one side of the ball to be dominant while the other is at least above average (our D even when rated high on points allowed rarely dominates and also doesn't provide the benefits that typically accompany a strong D. We play a bend don't break defense so we rarely give our offense a short field and our defense has never been strong on turnovers....something most good D's do. So while our D is always horrible in scoring, it rarely puts points on the board and or provides the offense with an easy scoring opportunity), it requires your team to stay healthy, solid coaching and a little bit of luck along the way.
Cousins isn't the perfect QB, he isn't the best QB in the league but anyone who thinks the reason we haven't gotten there is because of Cousins is kidding themselves and I'll still argue he is getting better.
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Post by folsomppe on Jun 30, 2021 12:52:11 GMT -6
So Kirkโs turnovers are boneheaded, but Russ throwing an Int on the 1 yard line to lose a SB makes him ok still? Despite Cousins 2intโs he still had the team in position to win in spite of the fact their UT/NG was literally tossing Dozier and Bradbury around like a rag doll all game! I think people here greatly dismiss how impressive Kirk has been of late given the amount of pressure he repeatedly faces up the middle. Our OL is a constant sieve! Last, donโt throw out 2018 stats on D to me. Perhaps you forgot we fired our OC mid season because he was making our D look so bad because our drives werenโt long enough. Zimmer had to โgo back to basicsโ after the Rams game which if memory serves me was about game 4 or 5 because we couldnโt stop anyone. Stats are stats. If you want to throw defensive stats at me then I can tell you Statistically Kirk has been around a top 6/7 QB averaging 4000+ yards and less than 10 int per yearโฆ..But the haters will say thatโs just โgarbage time statsโ. Canโt have it both ways. In most of Kirkโs tenure our D couldnโt stop anyone when it counted. I absolutely Guarantee you SF would have taken him if we were willing to deal and they could have made the Cap issue work with Garapollo. Kirk had 10 INTs in the first 6 games. I don't really care that he played well after that, because he had already "led" the team to a 1-5 record, and only with a playoff shot because of the playoff expansion. Later in the season, he didn't throw many INTs, but he had a bunch of fumbles. Yeah, Wilson would like to have back that SB throw, and Pete Carroll might wish that he had called Lynch's number, but I dare you to find a string of six games where Wilson has personally played his team into a 1-5 record. So just so I have this straight, Cousins personally played the Vikings to a 1-5 record? Nevermind that the defense in those 6 games gave up 43, 28, 31, 23 (win), 27, and 40 points in those games. That's an average of 32 points a game. Cousins certainly has his share of blame, but come on. Football knowledge. Getcha some.
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Post by redbird87 on Jun 30, 2021 14:02:54 GMT -6
Kirk had 10 INTs in the first 6 games. I don't really care that he played well after that, because he had already "led" the team to a 1-5 record, and only with a playoff shot because of the playoff expansion. Later in the season, he didn't throw many INTs, but he had a bunch of fumbles. Yeah, Wilson would like to have back that SB throw, and Pete Carroll might wish that he had called Lynch's number, but I dare you to find a string of six games where Wilson has personally played his team into a 1-5 record. So just so I have this straight, Cousins personally played the Vikings to a 1-5 record? Nevermind that the defense in those 6 games gave up 43, 28, 31, 23 (win), 27, and 40 points in those games. That's an average of 32 points a game. Cousins certainly has his share of blame, but come on. Football knowledge. Getcha some. That is my point exactly. Yes he certainly was a contributing factor, but so were a lot of other people. Let's see how well you play behind Dozier, Bradbury, Elflein and then Samia? I think its no coincidence that once Cleveland became the starting G Kirk's play started to improve. Not to mention I think it took several games for the offense to adapt to Kubiak's play calling and adaptations. Remember....they didn't really have much of a pre season to adjust and while Kubiak was around as advisor the year before, our offense was still very different in 20 vs 19.
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Post by 1angryviking on Jun 30, 2021 14:16:28 GMT -6
We can agree to disagree. I'm not sitting here trying to argue Kirk is the greatest QB in the league, he isn't...he certainly has flaws but he also has his strengths and I'd argue he sits just below the top tier of QB's and has been held back by multiple factors not all on him. My point is people want to condemn the guy because he hasn't taken us to a SB or another Championship game since he got here....but there is a lot more to us not getting there than QB play and many of the other people fawn over haven't really done much better. Our coaching decisions and clock management have been questionable and our approach conservative, our OL has been a sieve, he's on his 4th OC in 4 years and only 1 was fired, and last our D has not looked anything like the D from the early Zimmer years. 9th in scoring as someone mentioned is not a dominant defense. All you had to do is watch the SB this year to see what pressure does to a QB. For all practical measures, few would argue Mahomes isn't one of the top 3 QB's in the league and he wasn't too impressive in the SB when he had little time in the pocket. Look at the time Brady had in the pocket in SB....he had all day to throw. Yes, I too think Wilson is better than Cousins, but my point is he certainly hasn't lit the world on fire of late. And as for the weapons comment Metcalf and Locket are damned good and their Running game is always solid. The one thing you can consistently count on from Seattle is physical football something I hope we are able to achieve this year. To get to the SB it requires a solid effort in all phases (our ST have been bad every year since we let Patterson go), it usually requires at least one side of the ball to be dominant while the other is at least above average (our D even when rated high on points allowed rarely dominates and also doesn't provide the benefits that typically accompany a strong D. We play a bend don't break defense so we rarely give our offense a short field and our defense has never been strong on turnovers....something most good D's do. So while our D is always horrible in scoring, it rarely puts points on the board and or provides the offense with an easy scoring opportunity), it requires your team to stay healthy, solid coaching and a little bit of luck along the way. Cousins isn't the perfect QB, he isn't the best QB in the league but anyone who thinks the reason we haven't gotten there is because of Cousins is kidding themselves and I'll still argue he is getting better. On top of one of the best skill position group in the league and a typical top 5-10 defense... Cousins also needs a top 10 OL in order to be more than a .500 QB? Yes, pass protection is needed... but so is timing, mental clock and pocket awareness. Those are massive flaws if you don't have them because it's not on the OL to get the ball out on time. For instance; Cousins ranked #33 out of 40 qualified QB's in "time to throw". The 7 QB's that held the ball longer are mobile QB's that extend plays (Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson, Allen, Hurts, Wentz and Mayfield). Yes, the interior OL crumbled against good DT's; but, a lot the pressure Cousins faces is due to his inability to get the ball out on time.
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Post by 1angryviking on Jun 30, 2021 14:43:33 GMT -6
Kirk had 10 INTs in the first 6 games. I don't really care that he played well after that, because he had already "led" the team to a 1-5 record, and only with a playoff shot because of the playoff expansion. Later in the season, he didn't throw many INTs, but he had a bunch of fumbles. Yeah, Wilson would like to have back that SB throw, and Pete Carroll might wish that he had called Lynch's number, but I dare you to find a string of six games where Wilson has personally played his team into a 1-5 record. So just so I have this straight, Cousins personally played the Vikings to a 1-5 record? Nevermind that the defense in those 6 games gave up 43, 28, 31, 23 (win), 27, and 40 points in those games. That's an average of 32 points a game. Cousins certainly has his share of blame, but come on. Football knowledge. Getcha some. 40 of those points were a direct result of 2 Cousins safety's and several interceptions. The QB needs to give the team a chance to win... Cousins buried them early in the losses against GB and Atlanta... and gave away the Seattle game. I'm not saying Cousins was/is the only problem. Just saying that he is getting paid like he IS the solution while being a borderline top 15 QB.
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Post by frantheman10 on Jun 30, 2021 15:24:11 GMT -6
The NFL is a parity league. Most games are decided by 10 pts or less and usually those games come down to a handful of plays. KC has shown himself to be lacking in those key plays especially against good teams regardless of his overall lofty stats. If this team is to be 12 win team and be in the hunt for home field, KC has to elevate his play in crunch time.
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Post by Prเถงudhเถงrn on Jun 30, 2021 16:30:05 GMT -6
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