Vikeroo
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Post by Vikeroo on Apr 13, 2024 9:16:54 GMT -6
He made an interesting comment: If you put Rattler on the Michigan team, Michigan still wins the National Championship. If you put J.J. McCarthy on South Carolina, the Gamecocks win 5 games. bullshit
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Rattler
Apr 13, 2024 9:27:13 GMT -6
Post by dougpaschal on Apr 13, 2024 9:27:13 GMT -6
If you put Rattler on the Michigan team, Michigan still wins the National Championship
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avguy
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Rattler
Apr 13, 2024 9:33:03 GMT -6
Post by avguy on Apr 13, 2024 9:33:03 GMT -6
Rattler is kinda small - this is a good indicator of NFL success and it is the whole (build), not just a ht/wt.
Plus, I'm more or less tired of acquiring lighter, finesse type guys for the Vikings. Just because they play indoors doesn't mean you can't stack the roster with big-framed brutes whom also run fast due to modern physical training methods!
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Rattler
Apr 13, 2024 10:46:15 GMT -6
Post by redbird87 on Apr 13, 2024 10:46:15 GMT -6
I said Griffin is an add, but it's not like we added a pro bowl shut down corner....he's a filler. The biggest win of signing Griffin is it allows Murphy to move to slot where he is better suited to play. As for the others....I like Grenard, but he isn't even in the same hemisphere as Hunter in overall game. Cashman better than Hicks....doubtful. Due to age it is possible he'll play better than him in 24, but if comparing to Hick's life's work and how he played in 23 it's highly unlikely Cashman proves better. At 27, if Cashman was as good as you believe and on the cusp of pro bowl levels of play, why would (nope) Ryans let the guy leave? It wasn't like his asking price was breaking the bank and it isn't like Houston isn't trying to win right now? He either thought he over achieved, has limitations to his game or won't be able to stay healthy. I put Wonnam and Van Ginkel as a toss up. If you are asking about the prior year versions of Wonnam I'd agree, but Wonnam played outstanding last year in a system that suited him better. I don't think we let him walk if he hadn't gotten injured. We have very little depth at DE and Wonnam may not be fully healed from his injury by the start of the season and that likely sealed his fate with us. VanGinkel has a good motor, has experience in the system already and has a mostly clean injury history so it was a natural transition. VG has a great motor, but Wonnam is much bigger and stronger. Tie. Again, I'm not dogging the players we signed, I think we did what we could with cap we had to work but the defense at best is = to last year and last year wasn't good enough. There is still offseason to go, so maybe we make another good signing but so far we have just as many holes as last year and we still are a ? at G, WR, NT and QB and have thin depth everywhere but S. And that doesn't address the rest of the OL that can't win in the trenches when they need to. Cashman was better than Hicks was last year, Higher Pff grade, way better in coverage and equal in the run game, so you are wrong on that one. The question of why would Houston let him go is moot as why did the Vikes let Hunter go when they could have easily signed him for the same contract Houston did, easily. As far as Grenard not being in the same hemisphere as Hunter, you're wrong, show me facts not statements. Hunters time to pressure was longer than Grenards time to pressure. Grenard had a higher pressure rate than Hunter. Hunter had more tackles and 4 more sacks. Hunter is better, but they are in the same hemisphere also Grenard is only 26 so that's a plus. Wonum is not better than Van Ginkel and you won't find anyone beside you who thinks so if they've watched both play. I didn't say Wonnam was better, I said tie. There is more to playing edge than rushing the passer and Hunter is a far more complete edge. The fact Houston let a younger player entering his prime walk to spend more on a 30 yr old Hunter should tell you all you need to know. We let Hunter go because of Cap Hit combined with Age. The Cashman "moot point" comment is ridiculous. Cashman wasn't going to be a huge cap hit for Houston like Hunter was for us. Do you think we'd have let a 26/27 year old Kendricks walk out of the building if the cost was 8-9M....no way. Go back and read my post there are only certain reasons teams let mid 20's players leave. The fact they let him walk when re-signing him would not have broken the bank should tell you all you need to know. They either think he can't stay healthy or there are limitations to his game. We let Hicks go due to age, not because of his play. He was a stud in 23. When Cashman puts more than 1 year of decent play together then you can tell me he's a better LB.
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tavike
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Post by tavike on Apr 13, 2024 13:44:36 GMT -6
Cashman was better than Hicks was last year, Higher Pff grade, way better in coverage and equal in the run game, so you are wrong on that one. The question of why would Houston let him go is moot as why did the Vikes let Hunter go when they could have easily signed him for the same contract Houston did, easily. As far as Grenard not being in the same hemisphere as Hunter, you're wrong, show me facts not statements. Hunters time to pressure was longer than Grenards time to pressure. Grenard had a higher pressure rate than Hunter. Hunter had more tackles and 4 more sacks. Hunter is better, but they are in the same hemisphere also Grenard is only 26 so that's a plus. Wonum is not better than Van Ginkel and you won't find anyone beside you who thinks so if they've watched both play. I didn't say Wonnam was better, I said tie. There is more to playing edge than rushing the passer and Hunter is a far more complete edge. The fact Houston let a younger player entering his prime walk to spend more on a 30 yr old Hunter should tell you all you need to know. We let Hunter go because of Cap Hit combined with Age. The Cashman "moot point" comment is ridiculous. Cashman wasn't going to be a huge cap hit for Houston like Hunter was for us. Do you think we'd have let a 26/27 year old Kendricks walk out of the building if the cost was 8-9M....no way. Go back and read my post there are only certain reasons teams let mid 20's players leave. The fact they let him walk when re-signing him would not have broken the bank should tell you all you need to know. They either think he can't stay healthy or there are limitations to his game. We let Hicks go due to age, not because of his play. He was a stud in 23. When Cashman puts more than 1 year of decent play together then you can tell me he's a better LB. You're using the reasoning of a team letting players go as the reason that they are not better than the players the vikings let go. No matter the reason Cashman was let go, he is better than Hicks at this point in their careers and that fact is shown in all the stats and metrics from last year. Cashman was a free agent and he signed with his home town team, you don't know that Houston didn't make an offer. No one said he was a superstar only that he is better than Hicks. Van Ginkel is not tied with Wonum, Van Ginkel is better than Wonum. As I said Hunter is better than Grenard, but it's not a giant gap and Grenard is 26.
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taz24
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Post by taz24 on Apr 13, 2024 14:43:22 GMT -6
If you put Rattler on last years Michigan team he would have sat bench behind McCarthy.
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taz24
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Post by taz24 on Apr 13, 2024 14:54:25 GMT -6
Teams are not just built through high draft picks so it is NOT the end of the world to trade away 11, 23 and a 1st.
49ers traded away a boatload and it ended up being for Trey Lance.
Still made the Superbowl because they traded away another boatload of drafts for Christian McCaffrey and drafted Brock Purdy late.
Nothing 'magical' about 1st round picks correlating to Superbowl championships. Lot of bad teams have had a Lot of high picks and still been bad. KOC and KAM will have to decide the threshold where the asking price does not appeal to them and what their other options are.
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Vikeroo
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Post by Vikeroo on Apr 13, 2024 15:23:56 GMT -6
I didn't say Wonnam was better, I said tie. There is more to playing edge than rushing the passer and Hunter is a far more complete edge. The fact Houston let a younger player entering his prime walk to spend more on a 30 yr old Hunter should tell you all you need to know. We let Hunter go because of Cap Hit combined with Age. The Cashman "moot point" comment is ridiculous. Cashman wasn't going to be a huge cap hit for Houston like Hunter was for us. Do you think we'd have let a 26/27 year old Kendricks walk out of the building if the cost was 8-9M....no way. Go back and read my post there are only certain reasons teams let mid 20's players leave. The fact they let him walk when re-signing him would not have broken the bank should tell you all you need to know. They either think he can't stay healthy or there are limitations to his game. We let Hicks go due to age, not because of his play. He was a stud in 23. When Cashman puts more than 1 year of decent play together then you can tell me he's a better LB. You're using the reasoning of a team letting players go as the reason that they are not better than the players the vikings let go. No matter the reason Cashman was let go, he is better than Hicks at this point in their careers and that fact is shown in all the stats and metrics from last year. Cashman was a free agent and he signed with his home town team, you don't know that Houston didn't make an offer. No one said he was a superstar only that he is better than Hicks. Van Ginkel is not tied with Wonum, Van Ginkel is better than Wonum. As I said Hunter is better than Grenard, but it's not a giant gap and Grenard is 26. You do know Van Ginkel is 2 years older then Wonnum and Wonnum has more career sacks. Van Ginkel is more of a true LB and Wonnum more of a true edge defender. Van Ginkel can play ILB as well as OLB and Wonnum can play on the Edge or rush from the inside in Nickle. Wonnum has played one less season and still has a sizable lead in sacks and is younger. They really are very different types of players. If I wanted a guy to primarily rush the passer and set the edge vs the run Wonnum is the better choice. If I wanted a guy that can do a bit of that and also be more of a pass coverage guy and do some blitz looks from ILB at times Van Ginkel is the better player for that. In the Hybrid we have Van Ginkel might be more valuable, but if you run a 4-3 for instance Van Ginkel would be a tweener and Wonnum the clear choice. Vikings did a lot of 4 man fronts last year in passing situations because of the personnel, and Greenard & Van Ginkel give them more flex. Being a better fit for what Flores wants to do is not the same as being a clearly better player. Remember 2 seasons ago Van Ginkel had a .5 sack year. If they wanted an every down pass rusher Wonnum would be the better choice. If you want a guy that can drop into coverage 25% of the time and maybe even play some ILB in Nickle Van Ginkel is the guy. If you find a better option at Edge then either Van Ginkel has more utility in a rotational role. Better fit is not the same as better player.
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tavike
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Rattler
Apr 13, 2024 16:07:16 GMT -6
Post by tavike on Apr 13, 2024 16:07:16 GMT -6
You're using the reasoning of a team letting players go as the reason that they are not better than the players the vikings let go. No matter the reason Cashman was let go, he is better than Hicks at this point in their careers and that fact is shown in all the stats and metrics from last year. Cashman was a free agent and he signed with his home town team, you don't know that Houston didn't make an offer. No one said he was a superstar only that he is better than Hicks. Van Ginkel is not tied with Wonum, Van Ginkel is better than Wonum. As I said Hunter is better than Grenard, but it's not a giant gap and Grenard is 26. You do know Van Ginkel is 2 years older then Wonnum and Wonnum has more career sacks. Van Ginkel is more of a true LB and Wonnum more of a true edge defender. Van Ginkel can play ILB as well as OLB and Wonnum can play on the Edge or rush from the inside in Nickle. Wonnum has played one less season and still has a sizable lead in sacks and is younger. They really are very different types of players. If I wanted a guy to primarily rush the passer and set the edge vs the run Wonnum is the better choice. If I wanted a guy that can do a bit of that and also be more of a pass coverage guy and do some blitz looks from ILB at times Van Ginkel is the better player for that. In the Hybrid we have Van Ginkel might be more valuable, but if you run a 4-3 for instance Van Ginkel would be a tweener and Wonnum the clear choice. Vikings did a lot of 4 man fronts last year in passing situations because of the personnel, and Greenard & Van Ginkel give them more flex. Being a better fit for what Flores wants to do is not the same as being a clearly better player. Remember 2 seasons ago Van Ginkel had a .5 sack year. If they wanted an every down pass rusher Wonnum would be the better choice. If you want a guy that can drop into coverage 25% of the time and maybe even play some ILB in Nickle Van Ginkel is the guy. If you find a better option at Edge then either Van Ginkel has more utility in a rotational role. Better fit is not the same as better player. Didn't they have to play more 4 man fronts last year because Wonum was only able to be an down lineman? Less flexibility on the 7 man fronts because Wonum wasn't going to be able to cover anyone. Thus Van Ginkel is the better option in my opinion and thus makes the defense better. Thus Van Ginkel is better than Wonum for the Vikings. Of course this is just my opinion.
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Post by soonerviking55 on Apr 13, 2024 19:15:04 GMT -6
Iβd take Rattler over Bo Nix but thatβs not saying much. If it comes to having to pick Rattler as the QB of the future then the front office failed miserably.
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Vikeroo
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Post by Vikeroo on Apr 14, 2024 4:58:17 GMT -6
You do know Van Ginkel is 2 years older then Wonnum and Wonnum has more career sacks. Van Ginkel is more of a true LB and Wonnum more of a true edge defender. Van Ginkel can play ILB as well as OLB and Wonnum can play on the Edge or rush from the inside in Nickle. Wonnum has played one less season and still has a sizable lead in sacks and is younger. They really are very different types of players. If I wanted a guy to primarily rush the passer and set the edge vs the run Wonnum is the better choice. If I wanted a guy that can do a bit of that and also be more of a pass coverage guy and do some blitz looks from ILB at times Van Ginkel is the better player for that. In the Hybrid we have Van Ginkel might be more valuable, but if you run a 4-3 for instance Van Ginkel would be a tweener and Wonnum the clear choice. Vikings did a lot of 4 man fronts last year in passing situations because of the personnel, and Greenard & Van Ginkel give them more flex. Being a better fit for what Flores wants to do is not the same as being a clearly better player. Remember 2 seasons ago Van Ginkel had a .5 sack year. If they wanted an every down pass rusher Wonnum would be the better choice. If you want a guy that can drop into coverage 25% of the time and maybe even play some ILB in Nickle Van Ginkel is the guy. If you find a better option at Edge then either Van Ginkel has more utility in a rotational role. Better fit is not the same as better player. Didn't they have to play more 4 man fronts last year because Wonum was only able to be an down lineman? Less flexibility on the 7 man fronts because Wonum wasn't going to be able to cover anyone. Thus Van Ginkel is the better option in my opinion and thus makes the defense better. Thus Van Ginkel is better than Wonum for the Vikings. Of course this is just my opinion. 4 man fronts are kind of standard in Nickle with hybrids the big thing was Hunter is more comfortable rushing with his hand down and Wonnum got more comfortable as a pro playing DE, but you do realize he was a full time 3-4 OLB in college, right? Van Ginkel is pushing 30 and doesn't even have 20 career sacks. He is a good hustle player with more versatility, but Wonnum is stronger at the point of attack and he finishes. Without the injury Wonnum would have gotten a better contract then Van Ginkel. His skill set usually get paid more and he is younger.
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avguy
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Rattler
Apr 14, 2024 10:42:21 GMT -6
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Post by avguy on Apr 14, 2024 10:42:21 GMT -6
Ughhh!! I only tried to justly scare everybody away from the diminutive Spencer Rattler in this thread And Now you guys are exposing the likely truths that the Vikes defense will again be underwhelming to not very physical!
Theyβll even draft a few more guys with finesse style, I would bet.
I must add, the draft pool on the whole has hardly any guys on the defense side whom could aggressively become tone-setters for a team. But, there are quite a few OTs and some interior OL guys with great mass to power measures. All big guys these days train much better than decades ago to have speed & agility combined with size, so thereβs no excuse to pick small guys any slot on your roster.
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tavike
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Rattler
Apr 14, 2024 12:05:19 GMT -6
Post by tavike on Apr 14, 2024 12:05:19 GMT -6
Didn't they have to play more 4 man fronts last year because Wonum was only able to be an down lineman? Less flexibility on the 7 man fronts because Wonum wasn't going to be able to cover anyone. Thus Van Ginkel is the better option in my opinion and thus makes the defense better. Thus Van Ginkel is better than Wonum for the Vikings. Of course this is just my opinion. 4 man fronts are kind of standard in Nickle with hybrids the big thing was Hunter is more comfortable rushing with his hand down and Wonnum got more comfortable as a pro playing DE, but you do realize he was a full time 3-4 OLB in college, right? Van Ginkel is pushing 30 and doesn't even have 20 career sacks. He is a good hustle player with more versatility, but Wonnum is stronger at the point of attack and he finishes. Without the injury Wonnum would have gotten a better contract then Van Ginkel. His skill set usually get paid more and he is younger. Van Ginkel is 28. Does what Wonum was in College matter? Flores didn't use him as an Outside linebacker. He seldomly dropped into pass coverage last year. I still stand by my statement that Van Ginkel is better for this defense than Wonum is. We won't really know for two years, as Wonum will be slowed by the injury even when he does play next year, but there is another point, Wonum's injury definitely tips the scale to Van Ginkel, at least for next year.
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tavike
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Post by tavike on Apr 14, 2024 12:10:35 GMT -6
He made an interesting comment: If you put Rattler on the Michigan team, Michigan still wins the National Championship. If you put J.J. McCarthy on South Carolina, the Gamecocks win 5 games. what two teams does SC lose to last year with McCarthy, that would have changed their 7 wins to 5
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legion11
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Rattler
Apr 14, 2024 12:55:11 GMT -6
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Post by legion11 on Apr 14, 2024 12:55:11 GMT -6
I must add, the draft pool on the whole has hardly any guys on the defense side whom could aggressively become tone-setters for a team. But, there are quite a few OTs and some interior OL guys with great mass to power measures. All big guys these days train much better than decades ago to have speed & agility combined with size, so thereβs no excuse to pick small guys any slot on your roster. Jared Verse. Powerful guy, has some vicious bull rushes in his highlight reel. He closes on a stumbling quarterback like a shark finishes off a wounded seal. If we strike out at QB hrs in that 10-20 range. But I think he's a better 4-3 DE fit so maybe not for us. Edgerrin Cooper has some nasty to him as an inside LB. 2nd round guy, we don't have any picks in his range at the moment but you never know what might happen. I'll agree with you that this draft is light on big, nasty enforcer types on D. NFL defense is becoming more finesse based anyway, it's forced that way by the rules and trends.
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