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Post by rooscooter on Oct 10, 2023 22:01:51 GMT -6
If JJ really thinks he needs to tie his career to a late 30s QB that is only going to get worse then best of luck to him elsewhere. There's no way anyone that knows football can look at Kirk Cousins and think that he's suddenly going to carry a mediocre defense and a poor offensive line to a championship when he hasn't done it yet and he'll just be another two or three years older. He's not coming back for less money, some team will overpay for him just as the Vikings did. Granted, but what's your short list for QB's that have done that? If you look at SB teams you'll almost always find great offensive lines and defensive lines. 600 seems low. Where did you find that number. I looked for awhile but it was hard to find QB's who have started at least 10 games. That was my choice since Purdy is in this conversation.
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Vikeroo
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Post by Vikeroo on Oct 10, 2023 22:50:52 GMT -6
Granted, but what's your short list for QB's that have done that? If you look at SB teams you'll almost always find great offensive lines and defensive lines. 600 seems low. Where did you find that number. I looked for awhile but it was hard to find QB's who have started at least 10 games. That was my choice since Purdy is in this conversation. Believe he is saying since the SB Era began there have been about 600 starting QB's around the NFL give or take and around 5% or so have won a SB. The Vikings have drafted 4 QB's in the 1st round in that time period (which I suspect might be the lowest total in the NFL over that time period). Culpepper was the only one of those 4 to take the team to a NFCCG even. We have even had young QB's they groomed go on and either make a SB or win a SB as a starter with other teams. Now the Vikings during my lifetime have been a competitive team outside of some very short windows largely by utilizing veteran QB's at the end of their careers. It might just be time to start drafting QB's until they find the right one. That might take 1 year or take 10 years. I would rather go through the pains of that then the frustration of the last 5 years of knowing they really do not have the team to win it, but keep trying to go for the gold. Look if they fail to find that QB, but end up actually drafting a strong roster over the next few years then they can try patchworking the QB position then. Last time the team tried this they drafted a dud in Ponder but also ended up drafting the seeds for what was a very competitive and maybe close to championship caliber roster from 2015-2019. They need to rebuild the defense almost from the ground up and maybe a tweak or 2 to the OL and you have something. You can rebuild the defense and find a new young QB these things are not mutually exclusive. The team as currently constructed doesn't have the pieces on defense and lacks something on offense even though the personnel are pretty good. Team could be 3-2 right now and I would feel the same way about it. I think they could win 6-8 games with their remaining schedule and not moving off guys, but what does that accomplish? Also they could win 3 or 4 more games the rest of the season and not make changes and ruin morale more and not add extra draft capital for future needs. Time for people to accept that Hunter and Kirk are not going to be here next year. Signing Cleveland and KJ to mid level contracts to maintain the status quo will not move the needle. It is time to change things. Maybe even Davenport could get something back since he is dead money to them at this point. Will your expectations rise if this team is 3-5 in 3 weeks? The earlier a team can trade for Kirk if he is willing to waive his no trade clause the better for the new team and Kirk. Team could trade for Hunter tomorrow and he is starting for them this weekend. I actually thought before the season started they were very likely to be 2-3 at this point and I mentioned 1-4 as a possibility after they lost to Tampa week 1. I actually expect the Bears to be favored this weekend and certainly the 49ers will be the next week. We are reliving the 2020 amd 2021 seasons again, but with even less talent on D then we had then. Most of this is because the owners have stuck with the reload vs rebuild mantra.
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Post by wolfpack87 on Oct 10, 2023 23:09:24 GMT -6
If JJ really thinks he needs to tie his career to a late 30s QB that is only going to get worse then best of luck to him elsewhere. There's no way anyone that knows football can look at Kirk Cousins and think that he's suddenly going to carry a mediocre defense and a poor offensive line to a championship when he hasn't done it yet and he'll just be another two or three years older. He's not coming back for less money, some team will overpay for him just as the Vikings did.ย Granted, but what's your short list for QB's that have done that?ย ย If you look at SB teams you'll almost always find great offensive lines and defensive lines.ย ย ย I'm sure there are some departed filly sites that rank o line and D line units of championship teams. I'm not sure how any of the recent champs stack up. Kirks problem will always be his immobility. You really have to have a great offensive line to keep him upright and away from that panic face we've all seen him have at times. I'm just not sure any of those teams out there that have an elite offensive line are going to pay for Kirk Cousins, let alone be able to afford Jefferson if he wants to follow Kirk somewhere. I certainly hope JJ isn't crazy enough to think the Vikings can afford him, re signing Cousins, and have the money and draft smarts to fix the defense and the offensive line. That's just not possible, IMO. Kirk leads the league this season in hits taken. And he doesn't run. That should tell everyone what kind of offensive line the Vikings currently have, despite what the Madden playing, fanboy experts around here try to sell each week.
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RF54
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Post by RF54 on Oct 11, 2023 6:57:09 GMT -6
Cousin is far from the reason the Vikings lost this game. When he is gone you will all realize how good he was. We've had QBs win more than 1 playoff game before in a career. I assure you, the franchise will be just fine with the next guy. History and statistics say otherwise
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Post by frantheman10 on Oct 11, 2023 7:21:28 GMT -6
We've had QBs win more than 1 playoff game before in a career. I assure you, the franchise will be just fine with the next guy. History and statistics say otherwise I like Kirk more than most but this franchise needs a new direction. Kirk had 6 years and we'll have two playoff trips and one win. Not all his fault. He's actually played at a higher level than his surrounding cast but teams don't hook their future on 36 yr old QBs unless they are HOFers like Brady, Rodgers and Brees. I want us to draft a young QB who at least gives us a shot of finding a 10-yr franchise QB. It may be Ponder II or maybe we hit a Burrow, Herbert or Lawrence. Just like Zimmer after 8 years, it had run it's course and we hung for probably two years too many. Same with Kirk. The movie has played out. Year 7 is not going to be any different than 1-6.
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Post by wolfpack87 on Oct 11, 2023 7:56:24 GMT -6
I guess the franchise is coming to an end then with Kirk leaving. Let me know when the moving trucks roll up to move everything out since we cannot possibly survive or win even 1 more playoff game without the savior on the team.
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Post by marshalltohof on Oct 11, 2023 8:26:11 GMT -6
I'm one who won't miss Kirk when he's gone next year. Hope things turn around this year but looks like the 4th losing season out of 6 with him.
He's played well most games but blew a few himself over that time. To me, his huge contract is a drag on the team that limits the talent around him. He doesn't have the fire or physical skills to single-handedly win games like a Mahomes or Allen so isn't worth that giant contract. (He's occasionally pulled out a game with his passing talent but not often enough.)
Also, the league has changed in the last few years. The current prototypical QB has mobility. Kirk is a dinosaur in that sense. Not a stretch to believe the Vikings would have the same or better record so far this year with Jaren Hall starting.
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vikes79
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Post by vikes79 on Oct 11, 2023 8:27:11 GMT -6
History and statistics say otherwise I like Kirk more than most but this franchise needs a new direction.ย Kirk had 6 years and we'll have two playoff trips and one win.ย Not all his fault.ย He's actually played at a higher level than his surrounding cast but teams don't hook their future on 36 yr old QBs unless they are HOFers like Brady, Rodgers and Brees.ย I want us to draft a young QB who at least gives us a shot of finding a 10-yr franchise QB.ย It may be Ponder II or maybe we hit a Burrow, Herbert or Lawrence.ย Just like Zimmer after 8 years, it had run it's course and we hung for probably two years too many.ย Same with Kirk.ย The movie has played out.ย Year 7 is not going to be any different than 1-6.ย Rams did on a 34 (?) year old Stafford. Nonetheless I do agree there has to be a plan for moving on.
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Post by frantheman10 on Oct 11, 2023 10:22:24 GMT -6
I like Kirk more than most but this franchise needs a new direction. Kirk had 6 years and we'll have two playoff trips and one win. Not all his fault. He's actually played at a higher level than his surrounding cast but teams don't hook their future on 36 yr old QBs unless they are HOFers like Brady, Rodgers and Brees. I want us to draft a young QB who at least gives us a shot of finding a 10-yr franchise QB. It may be Ponder II or maybe we hit a Burrow, Herbert or Lawrence. Just like Zimmer after 8 years, it had run it's course and we hung for probably two years too many. Same with Kirk. The movie has played out. Year 7 is not going to be any different than 1-6. Rams did on a 34 (?) year old Stafford. Nonetheless I do agree there has to be a plan for moving on. Agreed, the Rams brought Stafford in as the final piece and gave him a 4 year deal and it worked out. They won a SB in 2021. This is what the Vikings did with KC in 2018. They thought he was the final piece but it didn't work out that way. I highly doubt that the Rams are going to extend a 37 yr old Stafford after the 2025 season.
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Post by rooscooter on Oct 11, 2023 13:08:49 GMT -6
Granted, but what's your short list for QB's that have done that? If you look at SB teams you'll almost always find great offensive lines and defensive lines. I'm sure there are some departed filly sites that rank o line and D line units of championship teams. I'm not sure how any of the recent champs stack up. Kirks problem will always be his immobility. You really have to have a great offensive line to keep him upright and away from that panic face we've all seen him have at times. I'm just not sure any of those teams out there that have an elite offensive line are going to pay for Kirk Cousins, let alone be able to afford Jefferson if he wants to follow Kirk somewhere. I certainly hope JJ isn't crazy enough to think the Vikings can afford him, re signing Cousins, and have the money and draft smarts to fix the defense and the offensive line. That's just not possible, IMO. Kirk leads the league this season in hits taken. And he doesn't run. That should tell everyone what kind of offensive line the Vikings currently have, despite what the Madden playing, fanboy experts around here try to sell each week. The Zimmer era will overhang this franchise for a decade. The promise of a defense first team in the modern era was folly from the start. I was convinced that we'd never win until he was gone and we rebuilt in the gaps he ignored. QB is a position that puts you over the top IMHO. The core of the team that plays in the trenches allows them to do it. We are so far away from rebuilding that group it's not funny. I'm not as "on board" with the "new" high mobility QB thing as most. Many of those guys flame out pretty quick. When your leading rusher and passer are the same person you're an injury away from ruin. Cousins has been as good as any QB I've seen since Favre's first year here and you have to go back to Culpepper before that. Ponder and Bridgewater were the same... one was likable and one wasn't but neither could change a game. I remember the days of Kramer and Tark as well. We have a lot of rebuilding to do. The past 2 drafts haven't helped and we've never been a FA destination. This could be a long rebuild. Cousins or not.
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RF54
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Post by RF54 on Dec 10, 2023 18:57:04 GMT -6
Cousin is far from the reason the Vikings lost this game. When he is gone you will all realize how good he was. How bad are the Kirk haters missing him now?
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