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Post by redbird87 on Feb 16, 2023 13:25:12 GMT -6
I know everyone around here is clamoring for a dual threat QB, but I don't see that as long as KOC is the coach. If you look at KOC, the coaches that had the biggest impact on him and the offense he installed here....I don't see him wanting a QB like Hurts or Allen.
When he came into the league he was drafted by NE and saw great success in Tom Brady a pure pocket passer. Then he went from crappy team to crappy team as a player before landing his first coaching gig with Cleveland and his 2nd in SF where he studies under Chip Kelly who ran an RPO offense but failed miserably with Kap/Gabbert (I believe record was 2-14). Then he lands in Washington with McVay under Gruden. 1st QB, Kirk Cousins (Pocket Passer). Then the following year Alex Smith, who despite being a QB that historically ran a fair amount, was asked to be more of a pure pocket passer and only averaged 3.5 rushes per game before getting tragically injured. Then he reunites in 2020 with McVay as his OC where he is put in charge of McVay's high powered offense featuring a pure pocket passer and helps leads that team as OC to a SB title a year later.
So, let's talk McVay for a moment because I think it should be evident he is he guy who has had the biggest impact on Kevin. McVay when he goes to LA originally inherits Goff.....a pure pocket passer. A few seasons later, he decides to move on from Goff and is willing to give up a crap ton of picks to get the right QB. Does he go after Lamar...no, does give up a boat load of draft picks to move up in the draft for one of the top dual threat QB's...no! He gives up the farm to bring in Stafford..... ANOTHER pure pocket passer and goes on to win a SB! This year when Stafford gets injured they move to Wolford a pocket passer over Perkins a dual threat guy initially. When Perkins comes in do they design plays to help him use his legs...not really they mostly ask him to function inside the offense and he looks terrible before getting injured.
Now turn back to the 22 Vikings. KOC comes to town and the primary topic of the offseason is what to do with Cousins. His first decision with KAM is to extend him and not let him play out his contract while drafting a QB in a draft filled with DT QB's. He brings with him his version of the McVay offense, which relies on intermediate and deep throws along with timing routes that requires an accurate pocket passer willing to stand in the pocket long enough for the intermediate deep routes to develop. Despite knowing Chip Kelly's RPO offense, we don't implement any wrinkles of that in this new offense. In addition, despite having some really athletic freaks on our bench we do nothing to find creative ways to utilize them like Reid does in KC. Instead, we run a very traditional style offense .... just like LA. We employ WR that are asked to be great route runners. We employ RB's that are asked to do what RB's do. We don't run jet sweeps with a RB that runs a 4.2, we don't run screens to a guy that run's 4.2 we run jet sweeps with an average speed WR. We run screen passes to our slow TE's. I think this is what he knows, I think this is what he believes in and this is what he's had success with. I don't see him wanting to install a totally different offense for a dual threat QB that requires him to rethink everything he believes in and everything he's built his career perfecting. The offense he runs is literally the polar opposite of what you’d run with a DT QB.
I know most on this board are counting down the days till Cousins is gone and we can bring in some guy that runs around a football field as a QB....but I'll go out on a limb and bet the next QB of the Minnesota Vikings will either be a pure pocket passer or will be a dual threat guy who is asked to be a pure pocket passer. That doesn't mean they won't take off and run on occasion, but I expect it will be someone with a running skillset somewhere between Cousins and Burrow.....at least as long as KOC is the HC!
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Post by daredevil on Feb 17, 2023 7:13:03 GMT -6
It's going to be interesting to watch and see what kind of changes will be done; now with Flores and his aggressive style defense. I'm thinking that some of the items that you mentioned that their, or what KOC is doing now will have to be changed. I believe Flores's style of defense will force KOC to implement a change up in play calling. He may very well realize that they will need to find a more mobile style of a QB to avoid the pressure, and move himself into a better passing position. I don't know if KC has it in him anymore. He did look better this year then he has since he's been here.
The kid out of Fresno St.: Haener appears to have those qualities, but he'll be moving up in the draft board. His size will hurt him some though. He seems like he can find the throwing lanes even while under pressure. His progression is outstanding, and his ability to read defenses was surprising watching him. As I said; his size; may deter them from taking him in this draft.
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Post by steelheads on Feb 17, 2023 12:09:24 GMT -6
I'd like them to take a long look at Tenn Hendon Hooker. Yeah, ACL recovery is pesky, although I'm not too concerned about his age (25). But those two items would probably drop him to mid-late rounds? Regardless, of possible extension, they have to start looking at Cousin's replacement soon, don't they?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2023 12:17:37 GMT -6
Fwiw
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Post by redbird87 on Feb 17, 2023 17:45:22 GMT -6
Here is an excerpt from Walter Football:
Over my 12 years as a draft analyst, and 15 seasons total working around pro football, Richardson is probably the most inaccurate early-round quarterback prospect who I have ever seen. He has a habit of overthrowing passes or tossing balls too high, which are both problematic for racking up interceptions in the NFL. Richardson also routinely rifles the ball too hard for receivers to control. He has to learn to take something off some of his passes to help create more completions.
Additionally, Richardson lacks confidence at quarterback. When he starts out well, he can get into a rhythm and play better. If he starts slowly, he can get rattled by the defense and struggle to break out of his funk. Steady pass-rushes bearing down on Richardson often led him to make bad decisions. <I think KOC can help with this>
He has phenomenal tool set, but so do a lot of guys like Kyle Bollinger, Zack Wilson....etc. He could be phenomenal....but the fact that what he is worst at is the cornerstone of our offense worries me a bit! I have never watched him whatsoever....but when I read the analysis he strikes me perfectly as the guy that tests off the charts at the combine but can't play a lick of FB!
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Post by purplevein on Feb 17, 2023 17:53:36 GMT -6
Is Richardson similar to Joe Webb?
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 17, 2023 18:38:48 GMT -6
Funny thing is KOC was a dual threat player.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 7:33:01 GMT -6
I know everyone around here is clamoring for a dual threat QB, but I don't see that as long as KOC is the coach. If you look at KOC, the coaches that had the biggest impact on him and the offense he installed here....I don't see him wanting a QB like Hurts or Allen. ....but I'll go out on a limb and bet the next QB of the Minnesota Vikings will either be a pure pocket passer or will be a dual threat guy who is asked to be a pure pocket passer. That doesn't mean they won't take off and run on occasion, but I expect it will be someone with a running skillset somewhere between Cousins and Burrow.....at least as long as KOC is the HC! Past performance does not necessarily predict future behavior. And it shouldn't. If the coach and GM are worth anything they will do what they believe is best for the team NOW, rather than what fits their own past experience. But also, you are hedging, on gradations. Aren't Hurts and Allen both used primarily as passers who can run? I think that is where the league is trending, because it provides additional options, more challenges for defenses and usually more firepower. I expect that is where we will go after Captain Kirk.
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lunas
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Post by lunas on Feb 18, 2023 9:15:04 GMT -6
Is Richardson similar to Joe Webb? He is a lot closer to Jordan Love than Jalen Hurts who was a 2nd round pick. This is a very poor draft with many analysts saying that there are only around 15 players with a typical 1st round grade. Richardson should be a 2nd- 3rd round prospect like Mond due to his poor accuracy and a Trey Lance type lack of playing experience. QB’s who lack game repetition in college have a huge bust rate. Teams have to buy in on his ability to grasp a playbook and his leadership qualities to take him. The interviews will make or break him as we all know he will physically test off the charts.
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Post by iceratz16 on Feb 18, 2023 9:57:49 GMT -6
I'd like them to take a long look at Tenn Hendon Hooker. Yeah, ACL recovery is pesky, although I'm not too concerned about his age (25). But those two items would probably drop him to mid-late rounds? Regardless, of possible extension, they have to start looking at Cousin's replacement soon, don't they? Hendon Hooker is very intriguing to me and my biggest sleeper at QB in this draft. I don't love that he's 25, but I'd definitely take him if he's around in the 3-4 rounds. I'd even consider taking him in the 2nd, but I'm not sure I'd move up to take him, unless our first pick is a defensive steal. Hooker is just so poised with amazing touch and he sees the field well and understanding where his receiver will be. I really really like this kid. One thing I do not understand is the love for Bryce Young. The dude is so freaking skinny, similar to RGIII that he will break with one NFL defender getting an open shot on him. I am not a believer in this kid and I would be highly cautious if I were a team looking to pick him in the first round.
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Post by Prටudhටrn on Feb 18, 2023 10:37:59 GMT -6
I'd rather had a Dual Threat DE or DB or LB or DT. Good against the run and the pass.
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 18, 2023 11:11:56 GMT -6
Is Richardson similar to Joe Webb? He is a lot closer to Jordan Love than Jalen Hurts who was a 2nd round pick. This is a very poor draft with many analysts saying that there are only around 15 players with a typical 1st round grade. Richardson should be a 2nd- 3rd round prospect like Mond due to his poor accuracy and a Trey Lance type lack of playing experience. QB’s who lack game repetition in college have a huge bust rate. Teams have to buy in on his ability to grasp a playbook and his leadership qualities to take him. The interviews will make or break him as we all know he will physically test off the charts. There are 4 draftable QB's though. Last year had a deep draft at everything but QB and was less exciting for many for that reason.
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 18, 2023 11:16:51 GMT -6
I know everyone around here is clamoring for a dual threat QB, but I don't see that as long as KOC is the coach. If you look at KOC, the coaches that had the biggest impact on him and the offense he installed here....I don't see him wanting a QB like Hurts or Allen. When he came into the league he was drafted by NE and saw great success in Tom Brady a pure pocket passer. Then he went from crappy team to crappy team as a player before landing his first coaching gig with Cleveland and his 2nd in SF where he studies under Chip Kelly who ran an RPO offense but failed miserably with Kap/Gabbert (I believe record was 2-14). Then he lands in Washington with McVay under Gruden. 1st QB, Kirk Cousins (Pocket Passer). Then the following year Alex Smith, who despite being a QB that historically ran a fair amount, was asked to be more of a pure pocket passer and only averaged 3.5 rushes per game before getting tragically injured. Then he reunites in 2020 with McVay as his OC where he is put in charge of McVay's high powered offense featuring a pure pocket passer and helps leads that team as OC to a SB title a year later. So, let's talk McVay for a moment because I think it should be evident he is he guy who has had the biggest impact on Kevin. McVay when he goes to LA originally inherits Goff.....a pure pocket passer. A few seasons later, he decides to move on from Goff and is willing to give up a crap ton of picks to get the right QB. Does he go after Lamar...no, does give up a boat load of draft picks to move up in the draft for one of the top dual threat QB's...no! He gives up the farm to bring in Stafford..... ANOTHER pure pocket passer and goes on to win a SB! This year when Stafford gets injured they move to Wolford a pocket passer over Perkins a dual threat guy initially. When Perkins comes in do they design plays to help him use his legs...not really they mostly ask him to function inside the offense and he looks terrible before getting injured. Now turn back to the 22 Vikings. KOC comes to town and the primary topic of the offseason is what to do with Cousins. His first decision with KAM is to extend him and not let him play out his contract while drafting a QB in a draft filled with DT QB's. He brings with him his version of the McVay offense, which relies on intermediate and deep throws along with timing routes that requires an accurate pocket passer willing to stand in the pocket long enough for the intermediate deep routes to develop. Despite knowing Chip Kelly's RPO offense, we don't implement any wrinkles of that in this new offense. In addition, despite having some really athletic freaks on our bench we do nothing to find creative ways to utilize them like Reid does in KC. Instead, we run a very traditional style offense .... just like LA. We employ WR that are asked to be great route runners. We employ RB's that are asked to do what RB's do. We don't run jet sweeps with a RB that runs a 4.2, we don't run screens to a guy that run's 4.2 we run jet sweeps with an average speed WR. We run screen passes to our slow TE's. I think this is what he knows, I think this is what he believes in and this is what he's had success with. I don't see him wanting to install a totally different offense for a dual threat QB that requires him to rethink everything he believes in and everything he's built his career perfecting. The offense he runs is literally the polar opposite of what you’d run with a DT QB. I know most on this board are counting down the days till Cousins is gone and we can bring in some guy that runs around a football field as a QB....but I'll go out on a limb and bet the next QB of the Minnesota Vikings will either be a pure pocket passer or will be a dual threat guy who is asked to be a pure pocket passer. That doesn't mean they won't take off and run on occasion, but I expect it will be someone with a running skillset somewhere between Cousins and Burrow.....at least as long as KOC is the HC! It is very possible to be both a dual threat and a pocket passer. You would not take Mahomes or Herbert in a heart beat?
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mgb8
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Post by mgb8 on Feb 18, 2023 11:58:24 GMT -6
Dual threat is nice and all, but getting massively overrated. Was Brock Purdy really much of a dual threat? Joe Barrow on the Bengals can move a bit, but anyone really view him as a runner? Hurts’ still being on a rookie deal and the Eagles Oline have a lot of impact on their success. Meanwhile, Watson, Jackson, Murray, Wilson, Fields, Lance…
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Post by Vikeroo on Feb 18, 2023 13:31:41 GMT -6
Dual threat is nice and all, but getting massively overrated. Was Brock Purdy really much of a dual threat? Joe Barrow on the Bengals can move a bit, but anyone really view him as a runner? Hurts’ still being on a rookie deal and the Eagles Oline have a lot of impact on their success. Meanwhile, Watson, Jackson, Murray, Wilson, Fields, Lance… Strange choices as both Burrow and Purdy are considered mobile?
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